Triple E fan page

DELFTship forum Hull modeling Triple E fan page

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    • #36995
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Well, it’s a while that this alien activity was detected: Triple E Fan Addiction!
      Yes! A lot of Earthlings are apparently devoted to worship a light blue and rusty red Idol, I do not comprehend but I’ll follow the trend:
      Last spotted:

      Jokes a part it’s a Very nice image, showing perfectly the giant task to harmonize decent waterlines in such a beast:
      Have a look to the transition from the boxy middlesection up to the bow.
      Chapeau. I’ll find even more strange the apparently small peaky-bulb.
      Same for the parabolic curve – at this angle of view – to the stern.
      I’ll hope they at least have fitted some better cargo management system to get rid of all the THOUSANDS of containers lost on sea every year!!!
      Not only Maersk fault, but I’m sensible to the problem: a friend of mine lost his boat on one of them.
      By, Jurgen.

    • #36999
      Marven
      Keymaster

      a friend of mine lost his boat on one of them.
      By, Jurgen.

      Ouch!! 🙁

    • #37000
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      You can say it!
      Luckyly they were just off Gran Canaria and thanks to the coast guard they saved life and most of the belongings.
      It’s an increasing risk not only for sailboats. the most treacherous float just below the surface and are virtually undetectable.
      As I know at the moment, nothing is done by IMO or any org. – and sincerely I don’t know what could be done – hope no tragedy will happen.
      Bye, Jurgen.

    • #37001
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Please, forgive me – I know I’m a bit logorroic – but when some topic catch me I can’t resist.
      Found this on a commercial maritime forum, so you cannot say I’m a kind of lunatic:

      So the matter is well known, let’s see.
      Jurgen.

    • #37170
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Hello Jürgen,

      not that I would consider myself a particular fan of those behemoth boxships.
      In fact, from an aesthetic point of view, I find they can’t parallel the elegant sleek lines of those steam turbine driven fast container ships of the 2nd Generation
      that came into service shortly before the Oil Crisis in the early 70s which either meant their premature demise on Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian or Chinese breakers’ shores or necessitated the turbine propulsion being replaced by Diesel engines.

      One of my favorite such vessels was the trio of the COLUMBUS NEW ZEALAND Class, built by Howaldt Hamburg in 1970-71 for the first US-Austalia container line service of Columbus Line, a subsidiary of Hamburg Süd.

      What awesome design. Look at those funnels

      ShipSpotting.com

      © Chris Howell

      But before I get carried away, back to the Maersk Triple E Class.

      I can’t understand why they are so popular among model boaters that quite a few would like to build a model of them.
      Their sheer size is very unruly I would think because it is far too big for the popular scales 1:100, 1:96 or 1:87.
      And in 1:200 everything gets too fiddly and fumbly, and much detail needs to be neglected.

      Because there is so much interest from model boaters in these ships I thought that I should give it a try to draw the hull lines in DS from photos and artists’ impressions available on the Net.

      I have done the same already for the equally popular EMMA MAERSK (i.e. E-Class).
      But since she was a single screw design it was far more easy to capture her lines than is with the Triple E.

      While the fore ship was quite easy I find the twin skegs particularly challenging and I am kind of stuck and need your DS expert advice how you would go about them.

      Unfortunately, I have found no dock photos of the already built ships of the series of 10 to be built, that would show the skegs.
      So this is all sheer fantasy of mine and may be far from reality.

      First I thought I could sort of bulge the skegs out of the pram type aft ship.
      But this got me stuck at this stage (see images below) and seems to get to messy and cluttered with grid edges.
      I think I should factor the skegs out in a separate layer.

      Now my idea is to model a skeg separately as a hull of its own,
      and then save it as a part export.
      Subsequently import this part into the hull file, position it and intersect the two layers of skeg and hull,
      find the itersection and align hull boundary points at its contour and finally penetrate the shell of the hull within the skeg enclosure.

      Would you think this approach was feasible?
      Or would you tackle this issue completely differently?

      I would be very grateful for any hints.

      Regards,
      Ralph

      Maersk_Triple-E_prelim_Linesplan.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_prelim_bodyplan.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_prelim_stern.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_prelim_fore_up.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_prelim_fore_down.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_prelim_bow.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_prelim_aft_up.jpg

    • #37173
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Hi Ralph, on an aestethycal basis I must agree but Petrol Crisis or not, gas turbines may not be a good response for marine propulsion, just think that even in military combatant ships a more efficient CODLAG or full electric design is adopted.
      The Triple E stern: sadly the ‘best’ picture I’ve got you can find it in the forum-Hull modelling-page 2-Maersk triple E Class-my reply #3224.
      These clearly are Not skegs, but well stramlined stern bulbs… by my point of view best way to draw them is still a direct approach by tweaking the grid.
      If you design them a part then import and find intersections…and so on, you’ll double the work.
      But the choice must be yours, depending on your attitude and skills.
      Best wishes, feel free to ask and if I could I’ll answer.
      Bye, Jurgen.

    • #37174
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      “Petrol” Crisis… I’m typing like a stupid, sometimes.
      Anyway, drawing that kind of shape it’s affordable, have a look at:

      Now the “only” thing to do is replicate it as a full – i.e. not laid on y=0,000 – in the appropriate position…
      I can think of some shortcuts but I’m not sure if they are feasibles.
      Cheerio, Jurgen.

    • #37176
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Hi Ralph, on an aestethycal basis I must agree but Petrol Crisis or not, gas turbines may
      The Triple E stern: sadly the ‘best’ picture I’ve got you can find it in the forum-Hull modelling-page 2-Maersk triple E Class-my reply #3224.

      Is this the posting No. of this forum? I will have to search for it or simply append post=3224 in the URI Query Path.

      These clearly are Not skegs, but well stramlined stern bulbs…

      They may not be skegs as to popular conception, and I am well aware that they are shaped like streamlined stern bulbs,
      in fact some of them even faired into the hull without even a visible knuckle line along the transition from hull to “skeg”.
      But this concept of stern design is definitely called Twin-Skeg.
      Just run a search or have a look at e.g. these articles:
      Efficient Propulsion: The Tripple-E’s ‘twin-skeg’
      Higher efficiency with twin skeg design
      Twin skeg versus single skeg on ULCS

      In the article behind the last URL above you can even find body plans of the stern sections of conventional single screw and twin skeg stern in comparison of which the latter doesn’t seem that far away from what the Triple-E’s might look like.

      The Twin-Skeg Stern isn’t a really a new idea in ship design.
      There was quite a bit of research done in the 80s and some ships, especially bulkers and tankers,
      (i.e. ships of high block coefficients and with sudden changes of curvature in the waterlines of the run and with steep slopes of buttocks in the region in front of the propeller that were susceptible to flow separation and an inhomogeneous propeller plane wake field)
      were even built with a twin-skeg stern as opposed to the conventional single-screw propulsion which would have been cheaper from the building and maybe maintenance costs.

      The twin-skeg stern was also popular in railway ferry designs of GDR shipyards, like the FS RÜGEN in the late 70s and with the then greatest railway ferries of the world of the Mukran-Klaipeda link which came into service shortly before the demise of the GDR.

      I think that the designers of the Maersk Tripple-E’s went for twin skegs after the experience they gained from the problems with the ultra long propeller shaft of the Maersk E-Class.
      Also they had scratched the limit of what could be powered by a single 2-stroke diesel engine with the E.Class vessels.
      So it was kind of obvious to go for a twin-screw solution.

      by my point of view best way to draw them is still a direct approach by tweaking the grid.
      If you design them a part then import and find intersections…and so on, you’ll double the work.

      Hm, the difficulty I face doesn’t arise from the bulbous stern like the one you had posted.
      I have done this for single screw hulls already without any issues.
      E.g. container ships that were fitted with the “AG Weser stern”.
      I think AG Weser were the first who introduced the stern bulb in the early 70s with container ships of the 2nd Generation.

      My difficulty arises from the fact that these stern bulbs must be shaped off the center line.
      For instance, how to shape the stern contour without a (red) boarder edge or crease edge as is prevalent at the center line.
      But maybe your suggestion to first shape a conventional single screw stern bulb and then offset it in y-direction does point in the right direction?
      I will experiment a little with one of my other hulls first before I continue…

    • #37180
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      I think the offsetting of a conventional single screw stern center line plus adjacent grid points that constitute the stern bulb in front of the prop i order to construct a twin-skeg stern is not a really viable approach.
      At least, I wouldn’t know how to continue from there.

      I took e.g. a hull model of the COLUMBUS VICTORIA Class 700 TEU single screw container ship (which exhibits one of those AG Weser stern bulbs I mentioned) that I had drawn previously
      and moved all marked grid points by 6m from the center line in y-direction.

      Now, of course I have a wide gaping leaking hull which would be required to close.

      I don’t know, but was it possible to mirror the selected items at the longitudinal by 6m offset center line to first close the bulb again and then patch the leak between the gondolas/nacelles?
      But even when I managed to close the hull that way then there was still the problem to sort of tilt the nacelle’s center line against the vertical plane towards the shaft bore, as can be seen on many twin-skeg constructions.

      Anyway I think this approach is misleading.

      Instead, what about cutting the pram aft hull in longitudinal direction along the y-offset parallel of the shafts’ center line somehow
      so that I would obtain an extrudable boundary edge, which I could extrude in negative z-direction to form the nacelle’s center line, respectively stern contour?

      Or another idea, would be the addition of a new cylinder or maybe just box primitive (into a new layer by marking the check box) with a rather wide diameter that would be positioned around the propeller shaft lines a possible method?
      Then this body could be brought into shape and joined with the hull.

      stern_offset_test1_prior_bodyplan.jpg

      stern_offset_test1_prior_3D_aft_up.jpg

      stern_offset_test1_offset_6m_bodyplan.jpg

    • #37181
      Conar Dodman
      Participant

      Hi
      I’m one of those people that is absolutely pants at any sort of technical design software. I have had a go at this but it would seem that the scope and complexity is beyond me, which is unfortunate as I have been looking to have a fantasy modern Battleship modeled. I have a general layout sketch (MS Paint) and a relatively detailed description but I am pretty confident I wouldn’t be able to do it, especially with my lack of skill at this kind of software.

      If anyone would like the challenge, I would be extremely grateful

    • #37183
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      All right, yes, Skegs, double skegs, triple skegs.
      As you please, I’m convinced and promise to worship and sacrifice to Godskeg till the end of ye world as we know it…

      Yep, maritime design it’s an amazing field for the variety of approaches to same known problems – phisycs laws – result are recurrent shapes refined through the years, so said let’s go to the clue: all your approaches are feasible with a degree of complexity, being a dumbhead I still think the better is the simpliest, i.e. working through the grid, with the help of #1 a pencil #2 a sheet of paper #3 a bit of imagination.
      Let me work about it.
      I’ll keep in touch.
      Jurgen.

    • #37187
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Hi Jürgen,

      I am afraid, but the nomenclature wasn’t invented by me.

      And yes, all the hydrodynamic issues that are tackled by naval architects through tinkering and bricolage ultimately merely boil down to solving the Navier-Stokes Equations.
      However, I think a closed mathematical solution is still listed among the Millenium Prize Problems.

      Anyway, the reason of this post was just to show you this photo of an 1/48th model of the Triple-E that I have discovered in a model boaters’ forum.
      Seems the pragmatic modellers have already solved over what we ponder here.

    • #37188
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Tsk, tsk, Santa’s Not happy; must find an heavy-lift sleigh AND pay extras to Reindeer Union.
      Impressive, no words at all…

      Remember your first sketch? I started in the same way, then shaping a cone, to blend in a kind of a nacelle.
      Central section needs a keel protruding aft: here’s one – of pure fantasy – modelled as inverted “T”.
      Once obtained the grid, and I agree it’s a boring task – it implies take note of relevant points location and offsets – it’s up to you: Mine’s it’s a mere sketch, you can lower the bottom of the skegs to join baseline smoother, scale down the centre “keel” and test the results.
      Point is, a result was achieved in a reasonable time, with good tooling possibilities.

      Let me know.
      Jurgen.

    • #37192
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Hello Jürgen,

      You have done a great job with the apparent ease of a seasoned DS modeller!

      I envy your skills and dexterity.

      Thank you for the little extra chores you took to show to me how to approach this challenge.

      I think I will have to reduce and disentangle my somewhat random control grid first that I have cluttered over the vicinity of the nacelle during my futile attempts to give it proper shape.

      One difficulty I have is e.g. defining the circular “lid” where the shaft penetrates the hull.
      As a guiding aid I added a (non-hydrostatically contributing) cylinder in an extra layer that was such positioned that its bottom/starting circle lies right at this spot.
      But I so far have failed to insert new control points of the hull’s defining grid at the coordinates of the hexagon corner points to shape a circle there and crease its edge afterwards.

      Ii also wonder how you managed to shape the nacelle’s profile contour without a crease center line?
      Or did you use a control curve or set a buttock through its center line to make it visible for the shaping process?

      I will carry on (family and festive constraints permitting) and report on failure or success…

      Regards,
      Ralph

    • #37193
      Conar Dodman
      Participant

      If only I was that good at this…. Im trying and failing completely (mostly because Im crap at this kind of software) to model a modern battleship idea and the complexity of both the software and the ship design is like shooting myself in the foot while running a marathon.

      Its a Pentamaran hull design, needs to be highly hydrodynamic and high strength, capable of high speeds while retaining stability and sea-keeping and with a transom stern with interceptor plate. Heavily compartmentalized and possibly double/triple hulled?

      Then there is the superstructure to contend with. Im beginning to think I am way out of my depth here….

    • #37194
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Nothing to envy, only practice.
      What it helps is a good vision in your mind of the final product and the attitude to recognize wanted shapes in any 3D wiew.
      I use only paper and pencil to have under the eye a pseudo-symmetry plan, without sketch it: then on the empty faces I set edges, points, and move them to stress the mesh as I desire.
      More careful setting near hull boundaries, take a help with intersection wiew.
      With this construction – i.e. starting from an “extruded” skeg – You do not need to set layers intersections, only adjust carefully the edges.
      If you draw the skeg a part – as in the Friendship Framework sample – case is different; could be interesting to try, but arrange a good filleted surface by layers intersections is not easy.
      Remember, the grid: less is better, regular spacing – as you can – , use the >>adjust points feature.
      Add some .jpeg’s to show some detail – hope you can see them –
      -Grid of the nacelle, in green the imaginary symmetry plane, red dots boundary of the hull.
      -A representation of the plan, look stressed zones of the hull to take care of.
      -From below, more hullzones to refine: take a help with Gaussian wiew.

      Take care, Jurgen.

    • #37195
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Its a Pentamaran hull design…

      A “Pentamaran” Design?
      Does this mean a ship consisting of 5 hulls, i.e. one central main hull and 4 outriggers?
      Never have heard of such vessels.
      And this is supposed to be a battleship?

      Sorry, I haven’t much experience with multi-hull drawings in DS.
      But I think one would split the task in first drawing the middle hull.
      Then drawing one of the outriggers (demi-hulls) in a new session which can be started just like a single hull but then can be offset in y-direction from the center line by a move operation after having selected all items of the control grid.
      This I think could be exported as so-called “part” entity which can then be imported into the drawing of the middle hull and there be positioned where it should go, as outrigger.
      This should then be repeated to go from Trimaran to Pentamaran.

      I, by chance, came across this site where they have designed a HALSS trimaran, a Heavy Air Lift Seabasing Ship.
      The report on the hull design and model testing can be found in this PDF.
      Maybe this is something that might be interesting to you.

      But I think you should start a separate thread and introduce your project to the forum participants there,
      maybe accompanied by some sketch or particulars.

    • #37210
      Ralph Grothe
      Participant

      Hello Jürgen and other Triple-E fans (should there be any),

      you were right.
      The task of shaping the nacelle of a twin-skeg stern hasn’t been insurmountable, and should best and easiest be bulged out of the hull instead of using the probably more intricate multi-layer intersection approaches.
      It only took a little patience to get my control grid sorted.

      So here is my guesstimate of the Maersk Triple-E Class design.

      Because twin-skeg stern hulls by nature have a tendency to somewhat fuller hulls I arrived at a block coefficient of approximately 0.7 which yields a displacement for the assumed design draught (not scantling which is probably 1-2 m deeper) of 14.5 m of ca. 237000 t
      (see DS hydrostats for the DWL)

      Apropos, Maersk have dedicated a sole website to the World’s Largest Ship.

      And there’s other memorabilia lurking at the horizon.
      Lego is planning to release a Lego kit of the Triple-E.
      This would have been a nice gift for my kids under the Xmas tree if it only had been available and affordable already.

      Merry Xmas,
      Ralph

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_skeg_view_split_hull.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_stern_2013-12-25.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_stern_up.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_aft_up.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_fore_up.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_3D_fore_down.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_DS_bodyplan.jpg

      Maersk_Triple-E_Linesplan.jpg

    • #37964
      Steve Bowen
      Participant

      I love the drawing you have done,
      I’m looking to make a radio controlled model of the triple E and wondered if your drawings are available for me to use as a starting point?
      Best regards
      Steve

    • #37988
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      This I call a grown up boy’s dream come true:
      http://gcaptain.com/watch-model-emma-maersk-under-tow/#.VgvZxH3aSOc
      Cheers, Jurgen.

    • #38106
      iosif gross
      Participant

      Hi Jurgen

      After long time I login, wanted to update myself, most of your attached/posted .jpg are “not found”

      Best wishes
      Joe

    • #38107
      giorgio zuppin
      Participant

      Welcome again!
      Just a part in my ‘clear the junk off’ campaign.
      And this message will delete itself in 3…2…1..
      Bye, Jurgen.

    • #38108
      iosif gross
      Participant

      My intention was to see the pictures 🙁
      Best wishes
      Joe

    • #38284
      jon
      Participant

      Hello Jürgen and other Triple-E fans (should there be any),

      you were right.
      The task of shaping the nacelle of a twin-skeg stern hasn’t been insurmountable, and should best and easiest be bulged out of the hull instead of using the probably more intricate multi-layer intersection approaches.
      It only took a little patience to get my control grid sorted.

      So here is my guesstimate of the Maersk Triple-E Class design.

      Because twin-skeg stern hulls by nature have a tendency to somewhat fuller hulls I arrived at a block coefficient of approximately 0.7 which yields a displacement for the assumed design draught (not scantling which is probably 1-2 m deeper) of 14.5 m of ca. 237000 t
      (see DS hydrostats for the DWL)

      Apropos, Maersk have dedicated a sole website to the World’s Largest Ship.

      And there’s other memorabilia lurking at the horizon.
      Lego is planning to release a Lego kit of the Triple-E.
      This would have been a nice gift for my kids under the Xmas tree if it only had been available and affordable already.

      Merry Xmas,
      Ralph

      I’d like to try and design this model from the hull line plan images. do you have higher resolution version of these images.

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